Saturday, August 8, 2015

" You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold em'"

 It has been a very interesting few days here.

From time to time in the past, I've had unpleasant experiences with "minorities" on the road, but it's always been on my own "turf." Not theirs.

I had to go to Chattanooga and I had a different experience there.  I'm not particularly satisfied with the way it worked out, but thinking it over I don't see how I could have handled it differently. However, I am open to constructive criticism.

I had business out at the airport, and I figured as long as I was going there, I'd run by the big Hamilton Place Mall, and go to the bookstore.

To get there, I turned off the freeway, and then onto Gun Barrel Road.  This is a relatively upscale part of the city, primarily commercial.  Gun Barrel is five lanes, two going each way and a turn lane in the middle.

Got to a light. It was rush hour and traffic was bad. I had my windows down.  The vehicle on my left had a number of black guys in it, mid twenties.  All tricked out in their "bling" and bizarre but doubtless trendy outfits.  They were playing what I presume was music, as loud as they could, with the bass maxed out. The side panels of my door were vibrating.

I looked around. All the other white drivers were starring fixedly ahead, and pointedly ignoring this. I decided "when in Rome..." and so I rolled up my windows to cut the noise.

I have a limited grasp of Ebonics, so I couldn't really make out the words of the song.  I think it was in the niglish dialect, which I have no fluency in.  Between pulsing drum thumps, I could discern someone screeching, and ever so often you could make out "HO!"  or "MoFo!" , things like that. Not my kind of music but I guess it was nice of them to share with everybody within a one mile radius.

Unfortunately for me, it turns out if you roll up your window in these circumstances, you have "disrespected" the purveyors of black culture.

The "brudda" in the front passengers seat started cussing me out.  It went something this. "Yu god sum tine to say, M**** F***?  I come over der drag yo ass out de car and kick de s**t out yu!"

He got more worked up the more he jabbered.

I couldn't go anywhere. The light was red and I was blocked in.  I had my Sig p226 under a Subway napkin on the front passengers seat, and uncharacteristically I had a round chambered, which is my usual procedure in a city.  But what help was that?

I decided to just sit there and look at the guy and say nothing, which is what I did until the light changed and they drove triumphantly away, grotesque sounds still emanating from their "ride."

I guess if they had come out of the vehicle after me, I would have had to shoot them. But that would have been it for me. Chattanooga, like most cities in the south, has a black majority police force, and a black majority staffed legal system.  I had no illusions about what would happen next. The "Black Lives Matter" crowd would have been down there in a second, Jesse and Al would be flying in, Obama would be saying "If I had a son he would be like Rufus Kuwazi Majumbo Tutsi Jackson", and I'd be gone.

So, I let one of the "Black Lives Matter" crowd verbally abuse me, sat there passively, and watched them all drive away smugly satisfied that they'd shown that old Cracka' how things are in America today.

I don't see anything else I could have done, but I still have very unpleasant feelings about this whole thing. I know what's wrong, but I don't know what to do about it.

How did it come to this?

“Kill the white people; we gonna make them hurt; kill the white
people; but buy my record first; ha, ha, ha"; "Kill d'White People";
--Apache, Apache Ain't Shit, Tommy Boy Music, Time Warner, USA.

Prior Planning Prevents Poor Performance


  1. You did the right thing UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES. It's no longer acceptable to just shoot the guy and get it over with. Some folks consider that too antisocial. Personally, if I was going there, I'd want at least a .44.

    1. Gorges, the thing I need to figure out, is how to honorably conduct yourself without having to resort to weapons in a situation like that. Sitting there being sworn at by a mental pygmy may be the politically correct thing. It may be the only survivable answer, but it doesn't do anything to address the question. I was laying in bed last night, trying to go to sleep, and I thought to myself that if I had killed that guy I'd be in jail right now and my life would be ruined, my family in an uproar, and all over a troglodyte. But on the other hand, I felt, and still feel, degraded and demeaned by the experience. It isn't my style to just be crapped on . I can't remember it ever happening to me before. When I've run into this kind of behavior before I've settled it, without violence, but I used a gun to do it. Maybe it was because I was in a city and completely out of my element that I let things happen as they did. Makes me feel ashamed, though.

    2. Harry - please don't feel ashamed. i am so sorry that a southern gentleman has to feel this way and i bet you didn't sleep a wink last night. the crap that is happening in your country is out of control! and you did the exact right thing! if it happens again - do the same thing! there was a time when you could have defended yourself but with the way your country is going crazy - that time is over. pat yourself on the back for keeping your cool, keeping your head, not getting shot, and still be there for your family.

      i can tell how much this incident rankled you and i am very sorry. but i am sending much love, as always. your friend,

  2. We haven't reached the shooting game with those apes yet. Too bad.


    1. It was a bad experience. I think I feel worse about it right now than I did yesterday, because now I have had time to reflect on how ignominious doing nothing really was.

  3. Sounds to me that you handled that just fine. It probably would have taken very little action on your part to have escalated that situation.
    Yeah, it's aggravating and left a sour feeling in your gut, but after all is said and done, you still went home.
    Glad they were content to just giving you their version of the "what for's" to prove their masculinity to themselves. It could have been a lot worse.

    1. EIM. The trouble is, by crawling to them in the act of just passively taking the abuse, I empowered them and diminished myself. I can't sit here though, in my safe study, on top of the mountain in the woods, and think of anything else I could have done...

      If I have responded verbally, they'd have come out of the car. If they had, I would have had to shoot them to keep from getting beat to a pulp or worse.

      If I killed them, the police would arrest me and there I'd be, the evil old White cracker who gunned down four unarmed black youth. There wouldn't have been word one said about who started it, or about how I was at risk.

      I think Moe is right. I'm about to the point where I just wish it would come on. I know a lot of people will read this and think I'm a racist, but I'm sick to death of how 13% of the population is running the show.

      "A fight, a fight, a nigger and a white, if the nigger
      don't win then we all jump in. . . . smoking all [of] America's white
      boys"; --"A Fight";

      That's a part of the lyrics of popular black rap song. It's on the Time Warner Records label, for God's sake. There are a lot of worse one's out there "Gonna get me a gun and get me a knife, gonna find some white boy and end his life!"

      The thing is , that's how these guys play the game. The only time I can ever remember when passive resistance worked was when Ghandi resisted the British in India, but the British were decent people and leaving anyway!

      How is it going to help when people like me have to figuratively doff their caps and tug their forelocks to thugs?

      I feel coldy furious and I feel degraded. Next time I go to Chattanooga I'll damn sure have a plan for dealing with these Goblins without using excessive force. I could have done the whole car load with a can of bear spray, for instance.

    2. harry,

      you did not 'crawl to them', you were outnumbered, and who said they were unarmed?

      how many decent black people are just as disgusted as you were but are afraid to say anything since they live in the same areas?

      same with really moderate moslems. they fear for their lives and their families' lives if they say anything or 'get out of line'.

      just reading today, can't remember where, about some military bases are run by gangs and there are no go areas, especially after dark. on our military bases!!

      that is a sure sign the whole damned place is going to hell in a handbasket.

      if you had opened fire and they returned fire how many bystanders would have been killed or injured.

      pick your battles and be sure they are at a time and place of your choosing.

      don't fash yourself anymore. you did right for the place and circumstances.
      you were not powerless, but opted to refrain from using your power in a situation that could be dangerous for more than just the principles in the incident.

      i know you are not a God believer, but 'what goes around comes around', as the negroes say, and it will come around eventually for every hoodlum.

    3. Deb,

      Sometimes a person has to do things they don't like to do. I've been in that situation before. But in those times, it was proactive. In this case, I had to just sit there and be abused by scum, and it doesn't sit well with me.

      I was carrying standard load 9mm ball. Though I hadn't given it any thought til you mentioned it, I might have had some collateral damage if the round went through a target into a car on the other side. But then, I notice that everyone was being oh so careful to not get involved in this, so I have to consider whether I really care about them or not.

    4. harry,
      remember that scene in a star trek movie where the ghetto blaster was going in a bus?
      no one could stop it and they were carefully ignoring it when spock settled that guys hash.
      then everyone applauded.
      lots of those bystanders would have applauded you if push had come to shove.
      one good thing, you are a Marine and know how to aim.!

    5. I do remember that. It was a great scene.

  4. You did right, Harry. These people are now emboldened and empowered, they know that nothing will happen to them so they are continually pushing the envelope.

    I'm betting that the mere fact that you had that sig standing by would have kept you just enough relaxed, and therefore level headed. It's when you aren't in a position to defend yourself that panic takes over and causes one to do make the wrong decision. Don't sweat had the upper hand the entire time. Well played cool hand Luke. --Troy

    1. Troy, I appreciate the thoughts. The truth is, I didn't have an alternative to using the gun, and they didn't push me to the point where I had to. So now I need something I can use in that situation and not exceed the appropriate response. I don't know what the laws are in Tennessee about "mace" but I'm going to carry a large size bear spray with a 20 foot range in the car when I go there from now on.

      They sure thought they show'd me, and in a sense they did, but not with the results I'm sure they anticipated. I'm not afraid of them, and I'm determined to be up to scratch next time. I'll just have to swallow my pride this time around and write it off to poor contingency planning.

    2. they didn't 'show you'. they showed their asses. to everybody.

    3. The other drivers there were being extraordinarily careful not to see what was going on. I would have given a lot for a few pickup trucks in that pack of traffic. The Volvo, Mercedes, Lexus crowd are the "pass by on the other side of the road " types.

    4. then maybe that lot would 'carefully not see' you shoot the whoresons.

  5. A semi similar case happened down Stephen's way a couple of years ago. The "old white dude" is in the big house now, all for defending himself against a thug with gold crown on his front teeth with a star in it.

    1. I remember that. The politicians were all too happy to have someone to throw to the mob after Zimmerman got off. The guys timing was bad. I think now , anybody who crosses "those whose lives matter" is going to get the stink end of the stick, which is why the police are sitting back and letting them slaughter each other wholesale in places like Baltimore. Who can blame the cops for that?

  6. My husband & I have the exact same scenerio many times a month. We both carry & I have never once thought about bringing my firearm out because of anger at their rude indifferance but if they EVER opened their door because of my obvious disdain of their activity I wouldn't hesitate ....

    1. I have been thinking about this, and I realize that the really big difference was that my previous incidents have happened out in the country, where there were no witnesses, or the only witnesses would truthfully relate what happened. Also, although I am not on a first name basis with the law enforcement people they are generally able to see the real life side of things. You might get a big lecture but in the end if you used your head and didn't overreact, it's ok.

      But this happened in a city. I knew the police would be black when they showed up, the judge would be black, the assistant district attorney would be black....... my only hope would be that there were some Asians on the jury if it came to that. I also knew that there would doubtless be some white guilt sheeple to write down my license plate number and give politically correct modified testimony. It took my confidence away, made me uncertain of myself, and I had to think out a reaction on the spot.

  7. If you had done the bear spray.....say, in Seattle, they would just shoot you.

    1. Well, I will take off if I have to use the spray, I won't hang around Chattanooga. I don't know what the official reaction would be to it and I don't want to find out either. I'm going to take the NRA stickers off the back of the jeep, those are the only identifying marks on it. When I go to Chattanooga again I'll put a little strategically placed mud on the plate. That's about all I can do. At least I'll have a plan and the means to execute it.

    2. if you mud the plates, can't you just shoot and take off?
      study the map so you know where to take off to.
      any real police would be glad the orkin man took out the termites.

    3. Deb,
      The legal structure in Chattanooga is largely black. I can't see much sympathy coming my way from the black police or judicial structure in an event like this.

      I was sitting at a traffic light, hemmed in on all sides and immobile. If I could have driven away, I'd have done it as soon as I heard them coming. But it wasn't possible in this situation.

    4. theoretically you've got mud on your plates.
      why call the police?
      by the time anyone discovers what happened most people would have driven off when the light changed.
      no one could hear a shot over that God damned infernal racket anyway.

      probably think it is part of the recording!!

    5. It wouldn't be me calling the police. Getting on your cell phone and calling the police on other motorists is a prime time entertainment venue , especially for senior citizens. If I am sitting in traffic and make an overtly hostile gesture of some kind, I can guarantee you that several people sitting in their cars trying to act like they don't hear or see anything out of order will suddenly come to life and start calling 911. I hear it on my scanners all the time.

  8. I know it bothers you but they don't really matter in your life so what you did was OK. They really are not worth the fight as they were not a threat to your family and they would have won if you were arrested. I would feel the same way but you have to pick your battles and that one was not worth it.

    1. My wife said the same thing. I asked her how she could be married to me for thirtytwo years and think it didn't matter. She said I just like to have something to feel put upon about so I can be angry and brood about it. I disagree but I do think women have a different take on issues that involve personal self esteem. I think you and my wife are both pragmatic, which is a more logical and probably more realistic approach. I can't help being infuriated and embarrassed by what happened, though. On a logical level I agree with you, Kathy but on a more visceral level, it matters a lot. :-(

    2. your wife is wrong about your attitude but maybe she was trying to defuse the rising tide of disgust you are feeling.
      i know that not that long ago [i'm from the South] there would have been some kind of fireworks.

      if anyone ever wants the hell beaten out of him, insult a Southern boy's mom.
      even if he's tiny he'll find a way to make the insulter hurt even if he, ,himself, takes a beating avenging his family's honor.

    3. That's a rural white Southern tradition. It's been largely "educated out" of young people. When I was teaching the mantra was never do anything to defend yourself on the playground, always run to a teacher. They keep extrapolating that philosophy the whole time a kid is in school, until most people won't even change a tire for themselves, let alone put up any kind of fight in the face of aggression. It's only in the rural areas that the old virtues still hold any sway.

      My wife , like a lot of women, is pragmatic. She cares not a whit what's going on in the outside world. All she cares about is what effects us as a family. She isn't concerned about esoteric issues like a man's pride. She's no coward, she's a ball of fire when you need her to be. She just doesn't care if the whole world goes to hell as long as it doesn't touch our kids. She also doesn't think that anything one individual can do will make any difference, so any sacrifice by an individual is in vain.
      Finally, she puts the welfare of the family at priority number one and everything else comes as a long second. I don't share her views on all of this, but she wasn't with me in the car when this incident occurred. I hadn't gone out to the airport yet. So all I had to do was decide how I was going to respond and lack of planning on my part left me with only one sensible solution, unpalatable though it was.

  9. Harry, you did the right thing under the circumstances. Your experience in Nooga, is the very reason I left Atlanta after I retired. You just get tired of putting up with it.

    1. Scooney, we never go to ATL, it's a hell on earth. But we've been going to Chattanooga since 1986. It used to be such a nice city, everybody got along and we never had any problems. Now it's a battleground between blacks and Asians, and the white population is ground down between them. I have to say this will take a lot of the pleasure in going over there out of the trip for me from now on. Maybe I just won't go. I can get what I need off the internet.

  10. It wasn't the most satisfying thing, but you did the right thing. While it's always better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6, you did well to not escalate things to that point. Yeah, it sucks. It keeps you awake at night with "what if?"

    Big deal, they got "the Cracker" to back down, but they are stuck in their private hell and you are back on your mountain. It might not feel like it now, but you won.

    1. There's always the fact , though, that having gotten away with that and obviously enjoyed it, they'll do it someone else and next time, it may go further. The worst that could have happened to me was that I killed all four of them and went to prison. Someone without the means to defend themselves could end up a lot worse.

      There's also a cultural aspect to it, in that Southerns "never suffer an insult in silence" but I did. It goes against my whole view of how to live your life.

      I feel disgraced. I'll get over it, but it won't happen to me again.

    2. I didn't grow up with the "never suffer an insult in silence" thing. My culture was more the stoic silence -then later, maybe even years later, serve up the proper revenge -a dish best served cold. Ideally, it's done in a pubic way that humiliates the offender and is also really really funny.

      I don't it doesn't much apply to the current situation, but it's made life interesting in my home town. Maybe it's because I come from people who were not the ruling class -the workers, not the bosses. Punching the boss in the nose might be satisfying (and it happened often enough) but it didn't put food on the table. Making the boss look like a jackass in front of his peers -priceless.

    3. Sixbears, I know the more phlegmatic approach is popular up in your part of the country. I'm not saying it's wrong. It's just not the Southern way. It never has been. When Alexis de Tocqueville wrote his famous "Democracy in America" he repeatedly remarked on the differences between the North and the South. As a French nobleman, he found Southerners to be irascible and easily moved to violence, especially in anything that touched on their honor. In fact, he remarked that it was a defining characteristic of all classes in the South. Of the North, he said that they were obsessed with business, and the acquisition of money was their defining characteristic.

    4. cracker didn't 'back down'.
      cracker merely did not engage.
      but was ready to engage at a moment's notice.

    5. Next time I'll have the appropriate equipment and not be hamstrung. If I am foolish enough to blunder into a situation like that again........

  11. Why give the thugs power over you. All they did was use a few words, probably at a borderline retarded level. If you are worried about their insults, you must value their opinion. Otherwise, just give them a smile and laugh.

    If you are worried about a justifiable defensive shooting, prepare, get a few cameras for your car. They are fairly cheap now. Remember, if you do have to defend yourself, DO NOT TALK TO THE COPS. Don't even give 911 the particulars, other than "Send an officer". The only two things you say are "I am invoking my 5th amendment right to remain silent" and "I want my lawyer". The cops are not your friends and nothing you say to them will help you. Let a lawyer do your talking. Some will tell you to run, but that doesn't work today. Cameras are everywhere.

    1. Chris, I'm not worried about their opinion of me. But that's not the issue. The issue is that down here, we don't let someone brace us up and tamely take it. I've proved that twice in the last 15 years to my own satisfaction. Now, given the situation, I had to let it slide and I bitterly regret that. I can only say to myself that it wasn't fear, but lack of a viable option that led to it. As I say, it isn't going to happen again.

      As for the police, my brother is a retired cop and he long ago told me the standard mantra for dealing with the police. Deny everything, make counter charges, lawyer up before speaking. He always ended up his spiel with "Officer Friendly isn't Friendly anymore."

      You can get cheap legal coverage for this kind of event from an outfit that as I recall is the Concealed Carry Legal Foundation. I pay the dues each year, and if I get busted on a shooting charge, they send a lawyer, get me out, and represent me. If you are interested in that let me know and I'll pull the file and give you the name and address.

    2. we are all interested in that info. never heard of that legal coverage.
      would you publish it?

    3. Sure. They sent me a ball cap last year and that's the only thing I've ever used , but you never know when you will need the other services they offer.

  12. Harry, you are a class act. Sometimes it takes more courage to do nothing than it does to fight

    1. It's like Lebanon, Vicki. Just taking it only makes the Goblins bolder and they just keep coming at you, with more and more, until you bring in the battleship and light them up.

      I know from that part of my life ,that there are cultures which only respect strength and view all restraint as contemptible weakness.

      I appreciate the kind things people have said, and on an unemotional level, in this instance, I can't think what else I could have done. That's why I am planning for next time now, though.

      My wife said we should just stop going over to Chattanooga if things like this are going to bother me because , she says, it's getting to be the norm, not the exception. Maybe I just won't go to cities any more at all. Maybe the Morlocks can just have the cities.

  13. Harry, you have to choose which battles to fight. I live in DC for christ sakes, where the black population is totally empowered, and the ordinary citizens are for all practical purposes disarmed. Not to say that the smarter of us don't have some surprises at hand....
    Look, the "Obsolete farm equipments" got all uppity wit you, so? In the current political climate you did the correct thing. You went home to your family and your life intact. You will not be bankrupted for defending yourself against a worthless thug. I like the camera idea. There are cameras available that upload to the cloud (whatever that is), so the recording is not able to be tampered with. (And I do not put THAT past the present day LEOs either)
    You had the means and the mindset to prevent harm to your self, it was up to Tony Gibroni to escalate or not. I KNOW how pissed off you are after an encounter like that. Let it go. Get some cameras for the truck, so you are better prepared next time, just in case. But go ahead and sleep well. You did exactly the right thing.
    My best girl had an illegal alien attempt to rape her at a garage sale. She put her Sig between his eyes, and didn't pull the trigger. The threat evaporated instantly, although the cops did not catch him...She felt that she should have shot the guy to prevent him from doing it to anyone else... Maybe so, but she is not in jail, her kids are not in "the system", and she was not physically harmed either. She did the right thing too.
    It is a badly screwed up world we live in just now. In the end wouldn't you rather be on your mountain? Don't let an encounter with a worthless low life take that away, until there is no other choice. By being armed, you were safe enough in the end, and the worthless shithead didn't get to rob you of your life, one way or the other.

    1. I'm thinking this way.

      This people can accost and threaten individuals on the public highway, without consequence.

      When that sinks in, they'll escalate it a step. They'll start robbing people on the highway, or just beating them up for fun. If they get away with that, they'll move on. This kind of behavior does not stay static, it always escalates until a cost is associated with it.

      But government, the great entity that so many look for to protection, isn't going to step up. They've already ceded that part of the battle to the thugs, post- Ferguson. The politicians threw the police under the bus, now the police are repaying the favor by standing aside and letting events take their course. That's why the murder rate in cities is going through the roof.

      These guys got away with this thing with me because I did not have a viable alternative to the use of deadly force, and they didn't cross the line. Next time, I'll have an alternative and I'll give them reason to regret playing that game.

      Or, failing that, I just won't go into the cities anymore and I'll simply concede, in my own mind, that they and their mindset rule there.

      I haven't made up my mind yet , but either way I'm not undergoing another experience like that.

      I see what you're saying about the fact that I can live up here unmolested. But I have kids living in a major city up North. As things deteriorate, how safe will my son and daughter be. I think about the fact that the Jews living in the Warsaw Ghetto considered themselves safe because they obeyed the Nazis and did as they were told. But in the end, it didn't work out.

      If the government lacks the ability to control the mobs, and the behavior they inculcate in certain groups, then maybe everybody will have to start making decisions about what they are prepared to do, where they will go and where they wont, what can slide and what crosses the line.

      There's no easy answer. Throughout my life, I've always operated on the principle "never forget, never forgive." I'm far down the road to be changing now

  14. Harry, I've only been to Chattanooga once and I did not get a warm fuzzy feeling from it. You made the right choice. One that was based on self preservation. Sometimes the most difficult choice is to act with refrain. It is not an easy pill to swallow, but you chose right as the alternatives are just not worth the trouble. Your frustration comes from not being able to do anything about the circumstance. But you actually did something. You made a choice to live another day. You have too much to loose and they, a pack of wild animals have nothing and could not care less about the consequences of their aberrant behavior. I know from personal experience how a situation like that can shake you. It will take a while to get over the uneasy feeling resulting from this incident, but it is better than the results if you had responded to their taunts.

    1. Michael, I needed a means to respond and they didn't reach a level where I ever felt like using a weapon was justifiable, however gratifying it might have been. Next time, I'll have something in the way of non-lethal protection that may give them something to think about.

      I am going to chalk this up to complacency and too much faith in a concealed pistol. I just hadn't given much, if any, though to a situation where I needed a response but not one of that level. Right now I'm thinking a big can of bear spray, and pondering a few other useful gadgets that one can acquire.

  15. Hey Harry,


    You did the right thing.....

    I would have done the same knowing my 1911 is just inches away.

    If those baboon buffoons' would have known you were locked and loaded. I think they would have been a little more respectful.

    If you recall I had a similar experience some time ago. I moved my arm around as if I had a pistol (moving my pistol around) and that bad guy in the Ford Crown Victoria with fancy rims realized I was armed and took off.

    Now about being feeling helpless and demoralized.

    You are prepared. You have skills and you can support yourself and your family.

    Shaka Zulu and his tribesmen in the car with the stereo, Im sure don't even have a bag of Doriito's in their houses.

    when the EBT cards stop, the federal coffers run dry. EMP cooks all computers chips and everything and anything else that can happen will happen. Those knuckleheads will be standing on roofs with SOS painted in big white letters.

    No one will come to help them. They will start eating each after awhile. Full on Ghetto Canabolism (Donner Party on Steriods)

    Meanwhile, your eating well and have some basic luxuries like fresh water.

    That's where the rubber hits the road at the end of the day. You can take care of yourself and the government does not own you.

    Those hyenas go through their entire lives living with no self respect. They don't work, they live off others and watch normal people go to work and on paydays buy stuff that they can not afford. They see a successful white man (or a successful man period) and they lash out, out of anger, jealousy and inwardly a great many of them feel intimidated when they see someone achieving what they will never, never achieve.

    If anything Harry. You should feel good about being singled out. You are what they will never be.
    If you were a poor, homeless drunk that had a shopping cart with all your possesions in it. Those mis-directed masochists would not even notice you and ignore you.

    Many years ago I got sued (actually my insurance company got sued) I was bitching to a friend of mine about it and he said something that made sense. You ain't shit until you get sued.

    The situation you were in is similar. You got something they want and you are what they will never be.

    1. I've always prided myself on being prepared for just about anything, and I put a lot of faith in my weapons to handle any situation that arose. If someone came up here and tried to break in, I'd shoot them. If someone tried to rob me on the street, I'd shoot them. But I never gave a thought to something like this, where the situation is ugly and can escalate but hasn't reached that stage yet. The pistol only comes into play at the highest threat level, so everything below that , if the pistol is all you have you are up shit creek. What I am going take away from this is that I need to be prepared for mid level threats when I go out of the mountains. Next time, I will be.

    2. Hey Harry,


      I read some of the comments. You are right. Thease jackasses feel empowered and when they smell blood in the water (weakness) they will attack.
      I personally will choose my battles. If I fire off one round, it may cost me $100.000.
      If I can escape and evade, I will. I will do whatever I can not to get into a situation. If the situation comes to me and I have no choice. I will open fire in a purely defensive measure.

      No half measures when my life is at stake.

    3. CC, I agree with your philosophy. My problem here was that my life wasn't at stake. These guys didn't make any overtly threatening moves, they were just insulting. That's the crux of the problem. I'm not inclined to listen in silence, or apologize for rolling up my car windows so I didn't have their obnoxious noise blowing out my ear drums. I just needed a way to respond, which I didn't have at the time. I will next time, though.

    4. cc
      they are not masochists, they are sadists.
      and, yes, they would notice the homeless man--probably set fire to him, may have already tried that trick a couple of times.
      that type are fodder for the fires of hell. it is just too bad for the rest of us that they are not already therewith their true father.

      what amazes me is that common sense tells us what ought to be done but so few seem to see it.
      harry is right about the schools--places that are prisons in which to poison kids minds--sucking the bravery out of kids and making them passive.
      i am older than harry so i am stuck in the past.
      i feel sorry for today's kids but sorrier for us oldies, cause those young ones will be staffing the nursing homes when we get there. God keep us out of their merciless hands.

  16. They knew you weren't scared of them, because if you had been scared, you would have looked forward pretending they weren't there, just like those other people did. But you looked right at him the whole time he was flapping his yap.
    They knew.

    1. Next time, Charlie, I'll be able to give them something to think about. This time, it was a painful learning experience. Down the road I may be grateful for it.

    2. lost my comment
      read 'the deliberate agrarian'. he worked in a prison.
      described the inmates of any color as you have described the 'goblins'.
      something missing in their souls and brains. they are not normal.

      we have to realize this and be taught about it, especially our children need this knowledge.

      i still don't know how to deal with it. they are alien to me.
      how does one communicate with outer space aliens?
      it is an unknown language for most of us.

      but they do understand strength and weaponry.
      how else to deal with them?
      there are no common points of reference even though we live in the same country and sometimes speak a similar language.
      if only their turf wars would cause them to wipe each other out!!

    3. if you think my comments are too awful just delete them.

    4. They actually are doing a pretty good job of eradicating each other. Large swaths of L.A. which were previously black neighborhoods are now Hispanic, and the internecine gang warfare between ethnic groups in L.A. is famous world wide. Even here in North Georgia, in Hall county, the parts of the main town that were black in the 1980's are exclusively Hispanic now.

  17. I have no answer for this question/situation. But maybe my musings can be grist for the mill
    We all know what the political climate is. Not just that the apes have free run but that the politicians want you to be bloodied before you fight back or YOU go to jail. I doubt loud monkee speeak/music will trip the no retreat feature of the law.
    I can see the bear spray being viewed as assault, which you alluded to with the points about getting back home safely.
    MAYBE a better idea is fighting noise with noise. You could prep your vehicle with air horns, pointed to either side. They are common on trucks. The apes are being loud so responded in kind, if they stop, you stop, but if they get out of the car then you can "present and point" out the error of their ways.
    The world is upside down what use is it to defend yourself but be destitute after all that follows.
    I got no answers, if I did I'd be singing them from every street corner because I feel just as you do.
    I remember reading a column in our local paper as a kid. The writer was a smallish stooped older man. Honest to God his last name was Klutz. He was the photographer for our local paper. He was traveling out of town through a sparsely populated area with 3 ladies with him. He had an altercation nowhere near as grating as yours on the road at night. He described his fear for the safety of him and his passengers riders while he sped along to his hotel and presumed safety. This was maybe 35 years ago, obviously long before CCW was common, but he was the type that would've NEVER considered active defense.
    I don't know, I feel 100% like you, but I'm not going to make it easy for a coon to take my freedom or living from me. I'm not going to tote a beating either.
    I like the horn idea, then if they get out of the car mace 'em, they keep coming? Institute some wefare reform.

    1. SC, so far, Bear Spray is the best I've come up with. They make big bottles of it with a 30 foot range. If I had a bottle in Chattanooga, I could have hosed out the whole car load of them. I guess if so left winger got my plate I might have been arrested, haven't figured out a way around that yet.

      If I had an air horn, they'd certainly have come boiling out and I'd certainly had to have shot them. But in that city, or any city in the South, then I'd wind up in the clutches of the local district attorney, and that would be really bad for me.

      What I need is a way to disengage from a situation like that without abject surrender. I know a lot of people not from down here are ok with crawling away from a situation like that but I'm not ok with it. I'm not saying I'm any braver than anyone else, I just wasn't raised to respond that way.

      I'm not fist fighting with these guys. 63 years old vrs 24 year old is not promising from my perspective. Let alone the fact that there were four of them. Their little rap song that says "A Fight! A Fight! A nigger and a white. If the nigger don't win then we all jump in!" says it all.

  18. Wise move Harry. I think "no response" is the correct response in almost all emotionally explosive situations, no matter who it is or what's going on. There are so many angry people out there nowadays, just itching for an excuse to indulge in hostility. You met it head on and didn't lose control. You robbed him of his "power" to get a particular response out of you. Well done.

    1. Leigh, it's kind of you to say so. But I didn't act the way I did out of forbearance. I did it for lack of any other option. I feel badly about it. Next time, I'll be prepared. This time, they found a chink in my armor. I just never thought about a confrontational situation where I could not use my gun.

      Whenever I think of passive resistance, I think of the Jews and how well that worked out for them 1932-1945.

  19. Another thing I just remembered :
    I always leave about a half a car length between me and the car in front. Took me a while to get into the habit, but it gives me an avenue of escape if I'm not in the middle lane, which I also try to avoid.

    I like SC's layered defense of horn then spray then lead, although the horn almost guarantees that you'll need to use the spray. In the interests of full disclosure, the SC hellraiser I used to be does find that sort of appealing...

    1. Charlie, I do that same procedure, but in this case, with cars to the left and a high curb to the right, I had no where to go. It's a good defensive posture to stay to the right and leave some room up front, I agree.

      I think SC has a good plan. The air horn would certainly bring on a physical confrontation, but if the goblins were seen to be the aggressors then use of non lethal force or even lethal force if need be would be more defensible in court. It's strange but true that I have more concern about the aftermath of a shooting than I do about the shooting itself.

  20. I don't know what the rules are like down in Tennessee and Georgia, but here in Maine it is legal and perfectly normal to see a long gun in a rack in the back window of a pickup truck. In fact authorities prefer to see them there rather than hidden behind the seat as they know what they are up against if they need to approach. The long gun in the rack is also usually sufficient deterrent to keep troublemakers at bay. A couple of prominently displayed large NRA or other easily recognizable gun related stickers might achieve some of the same effect without being too overtly confrontational. I remember once years ago in my way to Florida in my Bronco, I stopped along the way in Connecticut to visit a friend with a very long and muddy driveway. Next stop was Manhattan to visit for a couple of days with a lady friend who had promised to show me around the big city. The very muddy white and blue Bronco with 36 inch tires and light festooned cow catcher made everyone on the road give me a very wide berth. The sea of vehicles and pedestrians parted ahead of me, all seemed quite frightened at the presence of my utterly muddied up beast going down Broadway Ave. I found moving around was in fact much easier than I initially feared. Parking on the street was also worry free as no one came near my monster mudder. My point is that some degree of appropriate passive vehicle decoration might be sufficient deterrent to keep the predators at bay or at the very least make them think twice before they start in to their aberrant behavior. Something like the vehicle version of the trick with the size 16 boots and the note by the front door for your buddy Bubba to wait on the porch as your Rottweiler inside is in a particularly foul mood today.

    1. You can carry long guns in a rack, but I think that in Chattanooga or Atlanta, the minute you left your vehicle someone would simply break the windows and steal the guns. You have given me an idea though. There are lots of fake guns on the market that don't cost much. I could put one of those in my truck rack. It would give the same impression and if it got stolen my auto insurance would cover it. I can't do that with the Jeep though, because the back and side windows aft of the drivers seat are all tinted. The front windows are clear glass.

      The urbanites are indeed wary of anyone who looks rural, at least, the white one's are. On the one hand, I like my big NRA "stand and fight" stickers on the back of the Jeep, and my truck has Marine Corps, Southern and 2nd Amendment bumper stickers. Unfortunately, those also make me very easy to identify if some moon bat should happen to witness an unfortunate event and call the police.

  21. Wow Harry that would have scared me half to death. You did the sensible thing to preserve your life and live to fight another day, no one got hurt and you're not banged up.
    Reminds me of when James and I were on honeymoon in the south. Our last stop was New Orleans and when we were in Natchez a local guy was telling us what a shit scary place it was after Catrina when he went to help, some of the things people did were inhuman. We were driving through using the sat nav and there's no option to avoid gangland like there is avoid toll roads or avoid motorways. We came to a red light in a rough looking area and I glanced over to see a gang sat on the front step of an apartment complex. They looked at us, had a quick conflab and started to amble over. I looked at James, he looked at me and we said shit if the light doesn't change before they're halfway we're going anyway. It changed and we floored it!! I also had some nutcase in a car tailgate us and then overtake and try to slow us to a stop on the motorway to New Orleans, that was scary, we wouldn't stop so they gave up but hell it was horrible.
    Long story short it was a scary shit hole and I don't see the appeal, the rest of the south was just beautiful though, Charleston was my favourite.

    1. Kirsty, New Orleans has long had an unsavory reputation, and an astronomical crime rate. Most of our cities are dangerous places to be these days, though it wasn't always so.

      It sounds to me like you were very lucky you got out of "de hood" unscathed. People who wander into those often don't come out alive at all. Usually the police won't go in those areas after dark unless they do so in force.

      Having had those two experiences during your short sojourn here, you can probably see why so many of us are armed. There are few people who have never had some sort of negative experience like those you went through, and it is an eye opener.

      People here are fond of saying we have no "class structure" but we certainly do. There are those at the top, a relative handful who live in luxury and make the laws. There's an increasingly thin middle class, who are struggling to get by. Then there are hordes of the poor, and of those the inner city poor are the most dangerous. It makes for interesting times.

    2. interesting about some of those 'poor'. that damned fool phil donohue had some on his show long ago.
      one woman said she had a so many thousand $$ per month drug habit.
      husband was making less than 800$ per month then.
      how was she poor?
      where did she get it?

      plenty of legitimately poor but the trash floats to the top where we all can see it and resent it.

    3. Of course Charleston was your favorite - God put it there himself :)
      And New Orleans, a lot of it anyway, has always been a mess.

    4. Sometimes "poor" is a mental state, more than a dollar issue. Certain types of people wallow in it, glory in it, and derive great satisfaction from thinking that anything they do, no matter how stupid or evil, is justified because society has "screwed them over." There are certain ethnic groups that make a religion of it.

  22. Harry,
    I understand the things you're feeling, and I've had similar experiences. Understand though really, you did the right thing in the circumstances. I think you're upset about what would have eventually happened had the goons jumped out after you.
    When you're carrying a gun, you have the power of death over others. That power is only to be used to prevent imminent and otherwise unavoidable death or grave bodily injury to the innocent. That's the law and it's also really the only way for an honorable, armed citizen.
    Jamal cussing you out doesn't rise to that level, hell him getting out of his car probably doesn't either unless you know (and can explain how you KNEW) that he was in the process of attacking you with deadly force and shooting him was the only possible way to stop him from murdering you, you being blocked in and all. That's a judgment call, the more you know about things like the Tueller drill and so forth, the better you'll be able to correctly make the call, and to not shoot unnecessarily and also not hesitate when it really is time to shoot.

    Even as dishonorable as this experience may make you feel, I don't think you should feel that you submitted to them. Hell, you had your hand on the gun, right, and were prepared to "go to guns" if things escalated. That's not submission!

    I would suggest, if you can swing it, taking Massad Ayoob's "MAG40" class which is probably the best armed civilian training in the industry on WHEN and WHY to shoot. I wouldn't have done anything differently if I had been in your vehicle and I would have been tense as hell, but, I hope, under control unless the goons gave me no choice. Think about your responsibilities. What would the people who depend on you do, if you were to get locked up? That doesn't mean avoid the risk at all costs, it just means save the gun for when it's gun time.
    You did fine.

    1. I didn't shoot them because they didn't cross the line. I would have, if they had tried to get me out of my car. I certainly was ready to and up until the light changed, I wasn't sure I would not have to.

      I particularly did not want to get engaged in that sort of thing in a city. There, I'd be in the wrong no matter what the circumstances. However, I prefer court to getting killed and I'm not going to trust to the mercy of some thugs in the street. I had no moral qualms about using deadly force in the Marines, and I don't now.

      I plan on buying a taser and bear spray, and staying out of cities from now on. That covers situations that don't rise to the level of using a firearm, and for those that do, I can deal with that if need be.

  23. Harry - i could only read through half of the comments because i was so mad reading your post!!! i completely understand a true southern gentleman feeling irate because doing something would put him in jail but not doing something would make him feel less a man. Harry - that southern gentleman's way of thinking is very much alive on my island! and although your wife's pragmatism is highly laudable - your sense of keeping and saving face is also! i am so very sorry that you went through this - i am sure that this incident has caused you more harm than anything you experienced overseas - not because it involved any actual gun fire but because you had to live through what you must feel is like losing your pride - arghghghgh!

    i would kill those little idiots for you in a heartbeat! i cannot stand when a proper gentleman finds himself in situations like these! my ire is riled and i'm not pretty when i am riled!

    i want you to know that you did the right thing and i want to let this slide off of you like water off a duck's back. don't let it rankle you anymore and don't let it keep you awake. you did the right thing.

    don't let this gnaw at you, ok? i am sending much love as always. your friend,

    1. Kymber, it was a bad experience. I've had a lot more dangerous things happen here, that went a lot further along and did get to the gun pulling stage, but that was here. I can get a fair shake here. In that city, if there had been any trouble at all, I'd have been in jail. Knowing that left me without much option than just to take it. I do feel bad about that. Sometimes things happen to a person and there's nothing to be done. I guess this was one of those times. But I am buying bear spray and a good
      taser to keep in the vehicle I'm driving from now on. I'm not going into any more cities either unless the need is overwhelming.

      I get over just about everything. I think this is one of those things that will just pop into your head from time to time, for no reason, forever. Nothing I can do about that.

      I doubt George Patton would have let them slide, but I'm just a normal mortal.

      Thanks for the nice thoughts. You're a good friend, you and J.

  24. I'm a bit late to the conversation but wanted to share. I'm not certain this is a relevant analogy but it feels right.

    As a kid back in the 1950s my dad had a job delivering newspapers. One house on the route had a nasty dog in the fenced front yard. Every time my dad passed it, the dog would snarl and lunge and bark at him. What could he do? The owners were frequently in the vicinity. But the day came when he could take no more. The dog was tied up in the back yard on this occasion, and though he could not see my dad, he heard his bike and began his tirade of snarls and barks. Dad picked up a stone maybe the size of a racquet ball and tossed it over the roof of the house in the direction of the dog. His luck and aim were perfect. Moments later he hears THUD and frenzied yelping and crying from the mongrel. That was the last day the dog ever barked when my dad came by.

    Take from it what you will but I think there are parallels to be drawn here.

    Unbreakable AZ

    1. I see the connection. I'd have more compunction about thumping the dog than I would have about thumping these thugs. The problem is in defining "thumping".